Just a humorous conversation I had on FB on how possible it would be for David to kill Goliath so quickly in D&D terms. Some earlier, less insightful posts, are not included.

• 
  Me: David kills Goliath with a sword, not a sling. David hits him with a sling (since Goliath is aware of him, the only way he's getting sneak attack damage is if Goliath lost initiative and is flat-footed when David looses -- David might need a certain feat for that), gets a stun and knocks Goliath prone. Then, while he's stunned, Dave picks up Goliath's sword (short sword for Goliath cause that's all they had in the Bronze Age, translates to I guess a broadsword in Dave's hands -- as a rogue, he may still be proficient depending on which edition of D&D we're playing) and attacks stunned, prone Goliath, gets sneak attack damage if G money is denied his dodge bonus for being stunned.

  
  
• Me:  With the right feats, Dave might have gotten sneak attack damage with the sling, and more sneak attack damage with the sword.

  
  
• MD: Surely the sword was just the coup de grace?

  Me: I don't think being prone and stunned leaves you vulnerable to coup de gras. If the sling knocked him unconscious, maybe. Let me check my Bible. 

  Me: and/or Players Handbook.
• 
  

  MD: "David ran and stood over him. He took hold of the Philistine’s sword and drew it from the sheath. After he killed him, he cut off his head with the sword"
  
  It's a little vague whether or not the killing happens with the sword, or if it's poetic, and the sling did it.
  
  That said, without a weird build, I don't know of any way for a sling to make one both prone and stunned without just knocking you out. Stunned alone would leave Goliath upright.
• Me: Which leaves Liz's objection: How are you going to reduce a giant to 0hp with a slingstone, critical hit or no? Even if David is a 20th level rogue and Goliath is the smallest kind of giant, it's a tough damage roll.

  
  
•  David IS a rogue, because his brother tells him" I know thy pride, and the naughtiness of thine heart" 1 Sam 17:28

  
  
•  Tough, but not impossible. Especially with assorted divine favors/GM fiat. Though Goliath is only said to be 9 feet tall and change, so maybe he was a troll. Or a human with Enlarge Person made permanent on him.

  
  
• Me: He isn't 20th level, because he is but a youth (1 Sam 17:33) and the most impressive beasts he has killed before Goliath are a lion and a bear (1 Sam 17:36)

  
  
•  Troll would have regenerated even after losing his head.

  
  
• Me:  Human with Enlarge could work.

  
  
•  We know David does not have any level of fighter or paladin, because he is not proficient with swords or armor (1 Sam 17:39)

  
  
• MD:  At what point do diminishing returns on wolves kick in for XP? A Lion and Bear are impressive, but if we assume that he's killed a crapload of wolves as a shepherd, he's only good for what, level 5?

  
  
• Me:  In 3.X D&D, wolves and even lions would be worth 0xp well before level 10.

  
  
• Me:  If we presume that Saul has levels of cleric, Saul may be placing a buffing effect on David in 1 Sam 17:37.
• MD:  Yeah, even one bear is probably of marginal help.
  
  That said, we're not looking at much for Goliath either. He's got a follower (shield bearer) and some heavy, presumably masterwork gear, but nothing enchanted that they talk about.

  
  
• Me:  and they never refer to Goliath as a giant. Which means we have no reason to think he has hill giant hit dice. He was a large, perhaps Enlarged human.

  MD:
• Looking at the encounter calculator, David would max out at level 9. And that assumes that by that time, he's killing off wolves in job lots of 20 at a time.
  
  (Level 12 if we assume that he's doing the same thing to bears, but that is pushing the text quite a bit.))
• Me:

   Goliath is a man (1 Sam 17:24), so presumably a human. He could have fairly few hit points.

  Me:
• Goliath has been a fighter since 1st level (1 Sam 17:33) so he got 10hp + Con bonus, but we have no way of knowing how many more levels Goliath achieved.

  
  

  MD: And note, David does not say that he cannot USE armor. Just that he is not used to them. If he took the Vow of Poverty that limits you from using most weapons and wearing armor, he'd get a good handful of abilities from that. (though that may prevent him from using Goliath's sword.)
  
  Basically, if David is a 9th level rogue, and Goliath is a 6th level fighter (minimum for Leadership) stuck with masterwork gear, we're looking at the inspiring story of a PC who kicks the shit out of a character fairly weaker than he is.

  MD: Indeed, David is "Glowing with health" like the ability to resist the elements, manage with the relatively crappy diet of a shepherd, and maybe literally just glowing, all stuff from VoP, or other Exalted feats (including the one that gives you d8 sneak attack die.
• 
  
• Me: But David does not have Vow of Poverty (1 Sam 30:20) (2 Sam 6:11) (2 Sam 6: 13) (2 Sam 8:7) (2 Sam 12:30).
• 
  
• MD:That's fair. He could have ditched the vow later, but probably not. BoED is pretty cheesy anyways.

More hoplites with hand painted shield designs, Welshmen, and a scratch built stone circle

These Gorgon miniature hoplites are the second set that I've based with careful, deliberate thought as to how they could sit on their bases without spearing or shield-bashing one another. And it's working: here we have a fairly well organized phalanx (Hail Caesar only requires two ranks, praise Athena).

 

 I'm torn on the issue of eyeballs: some of these fellows' helmets make eyeballs impossible, but on others, I could put eyeballs -- but it ain't easy and you run the risk of making your men look cartoony.

Top eight (couldn't limit to five) shield designs: Front: Poseidon, Owl of Athena, Centaur, Grapes, Woman Running Naked. Back: Grape Vine, Woman playing Lyre (you may have to squint), Octopus. If anything looks cooler in classical art than that old octopus design, I don't know what it is.

 

Here are both of my "sensible" phalanxes (planned basing) side by side. The Wargames Factory Greeks in Heavy armor are a bit bigger than the Gorgon hoplites. I'm not losing any sleep over it. They're mounted on Litko trays and I'd like to mention how nice the people at Litko have been to me. There was a mistake with my order and they're sending me new product quickly and free AND letting me keep the stuff they sent me in error. I like the way you do business, Litko.

For Saga, eight Welsh warriors. It bugs me that so many Dark Age warriors get interchangeable shields (right? Vikings, Saxons, Welsh: everybody has a round shield with a metal central boss?) so I had to give these boys some smaller shields with visible wood (less decorative because Warriors, in Saga, are relatively poor men). Nothing too special about these fellas.

 

I've got a Saga game planned with some work friends tonight (which I consider dangerous territory, bringing people from your work life into your fun life) and I decided to make some nice Northern European terrain. Trying for a standing circle, I roughly hewed these pieces of regular packing styrofoam and glued them to the disc. Styrofoam of this sort has its own texture, composed as it is of many little balls, and I was hoping that texture would translate into a sort of composite-rock look as I primed and painted.

But then, as I primed, I realized that the spray paint was eating away the styrofoam, causing it to wither and shrink (and probably release toxic gases). For a minute, I thought this project was going right down the tubes, but I thought, what the hell, let's paint those standing stones anyway. It wasn't until I was highlighting/drybrushing with a lighter gray that I realized how the spray paint's withering effect was a happy accident (felix culpa). The texture of semi-melted styrofoam is very believable as eroded, perhaps igneous rock (if you read this blog and happen to be a geologist, I would love your opinion). Add some flock and grass, and presto, you have an ancient stone circle (with most of the stones toppled or broken.

Finally, a Wargames Accessories (?) well, which I got as a multi-setting decorative piece. I didn't create it, so I don't have that much to say about process here. It painted up very quickly and looks good to me.

 

You might have noticed that I got some new flocking material. I'm beginning to think it's too green.

Easy stucco house with tile roof

A little bit of my own ingenuity, a little bit of stealing ideas from the Internet, stir together, and I've got a pretty good formula for a nice Mediterranean looking house.

This is just some cut up foam core board. Two of the sides slope and are identical;the nonsloping sides differ are the same width but differ in height by about an inch.

Applying regular Elmer's glue to one side of each wall. I'm going to smear them around with some water on a paintbrush.

Sand has been applied to two of the walls to give it that bumpy stucco quality.

Genius that I am, I allowed for windows but forgot the door.

Peel back the top layer on a piece of corrugated cardboard to reveal this wavy, bumpy texture.

Now you can see the four walls, assembled and spray painted white, and the cardboard, backed on more cardboard, cut into strips just slightly overlaying each other.

And this is the more or less finished product: two shades of terra cotta paint for the roof, a last minute door made of wood strips mounted on a piece of black cardboard to create the illusion of depth (and compensating for my forgetting a sandless space to mount a door.

I just love this little guy; it was as easy as pie and will work great for an urban environment in most Mediterranean and Middle Eastern cityscapes.

Hoplites with freehand shields, peltasts, Cretan archers

Hoplites require planning. If you don't consider the other models in the phalanx while you base and arm your men, they'll end up stabbing each other with their long spears and nudging each other off their bases with their big shields. This is the first phalanx I've done for which I've been wise enough to place these hoplites on their bases with forethought. And the results: a phalanx where all the rear rank's spears rise gracefully above the shoulders of the men in front. 

It might be the best phalanx I've painted, and that's surprising because these are Wargames Factory Greeks in Heavy Armor, plastics, which aren't my favorites. But these guys have done a lot to restore my faith in plastic. 

And you know I loves me some hand-painted hoplons. Here are the top five: a dolphin; the letters theta, eta, beta (he's from Thebes); the letter mu (he's from Mycenae), an octopus -- and this octopus is the pick of the litter, it looks even better in real life -- and an amphora.

 These guys are brand spanking new, never seen battle. These next units are a little bit older; they were around for my last battle against the Romans. Warlord games makes these Cretan archers and I'm happy with the final product although I wasn't crazy about the figures. Warlord metal figs are small and scrawny. They aren't too bad as archers (and Cretans are small people in real life) but for most types of soldier, I'm going to be steering clear of Warlord as a general policy.

And finally some peltasts, manufacturer unknown, bought as a lot of eBay.

I'm doing another 16-man phalanx, metal Gorgon miniatures this time, and then taking a break from Greeks.

Hoplites versus Legionaries

Gladius against Kopis; Scutum against Hoplon; Hasta against Dory. When Greek discipline meets Roman relentlessness, who will win, and who will be left punctured on the battlefield? The answers to your burning questions in this log entry. After rescheduling last week, I met with GG at the Hub to play some Hail Caesar. Let us look at the armies.

The last time I had a brief, inconclusive match with GG, I learned that I needed a considerably larger band of Greeks to match his Roman legions. I painted industriously over Christmas break, but I was painting light cavalry -- not for new units but to make my existing units not look so skimpy, peltasts (cheap as shit) and archers (cheap as shit even when upgraded to Cretan marksmen) and slingers (cheap as shit even when upgraded to marksmen from Rhodos). So I ended up with about 350 points to GG's 400. Wanting the fight to be somewhat even, GG allowed me to bestow bonuses to my men, so I upgraded every hoplite to Elite and Stubborn. In this picture you can see my medium cavalry (hippeis) and some low-born peltasts and just the extreme right wing of my long line of phalanxes, including my heretofore invincible Spartans.

 

 On the other side of the table are GG's legions. I think we are looking at a veteran legionary unit in red, a regular legion with blue plumes, and some lesser warriors -- hastati perhaps? in the rear. Of note are those archers. Roman archers are not skirmishers; they're light, or in some cases even medium infantry. On the round base is their commander. How unRoman of him to lead from the front. Who does he think he is, Alexander?

GG had been busy painting, too. The last time we met, I was looking at a lot of white primer. This time his men looked good, in bright colors, high contrast. He had based or re-based a lot of men. The army looked good. I wonder if GG believes, as I do, that the only purpose of the game is to parade out your beautiful little toys.

 GG's equitae, medium cavalry, on his right wing. On this side of the field, I had no cavalry to oppose him.

 Fuzzy close up of some Greeks. Slingers march 3" in front of phalanx. If the slingers need to evade, they can pass through the phalanx without disordering it. Witness the Hippocampus standard, my own invention.

 Long shots of the same gang, my left wing.

Rounding the usually-tranquil sacred spring of Aphrodite (a nice piece of DIY scenery you can read about in the previous blogg entry), the Greeks get aggressive, attacking the Roman center. GG is going to win a little shooting match before the real slaughter begins, making my archers and slingers fall back behind the hoplites.

GG is trying to slip around my flank. A bunch of the hoplites on my left wing break off to stop them. He's going to flank me anyway.

GG leads with his elephant. He considers the beast useless -- when he meets my Persians, I'll show him how you use an elephant.

An elephant never forgets the first time he charges into a thicket of eight foot spears. (the elephant did force another unit of skirmishers to yield ground)

This is happening on my left. My slingers are slinging, his archers are shooting. My hoplites are way distracted trying to stop his equitae and so neither of us are doing much on this part of the field. Between us, we had probably 4 units standing around scratching their balls for most of the battle.

GG has a good round on my right wing, driving my light cavalry back and obliterating the unit of peltasts (fast-running hammipoi). But note how many of my units are in this area even after the peltasts get removed.

Here, in the center, we see Greek infantry doing what Greek infantry does best -- charging, spears level,supported by many ranks of comrades. His archers stood and shot, found it hard to get a hit against heavy infantry in closed ranks, and got pushed back. Pushed by the general who bears the Golden Fleece, my hoplites did a sweeping charge into a veteran legion. That legion has no support from nearby Romans, and the dice didn't grant GG a reprieve -- they were shish kebabed. They got cocky and turned into souvlaki.

One of the supporting phalanxes on the sweeping charge carried on into this group of archer auxilia (medium infantry with bows). I am not sure this was 100% legal. These guys were in the way of this phalanx, which had been supporting the Spartans) joining the Spartan sweeping charge. If any reader knows Hail Caesar and wants to comment on whether we played this right, I'd appreciate it. Here, too, I won big, with the hoplites annihilating these lowlies (they had already taken hits from shooting).

Those equitae cavalry had gotten their swords nicely wet, but now they were on their own against my light and medium cavalry which hit them in the front and the back. We chewed them up as well. Round 3 was a terrible round for the Romans.

 What I didn't get a picture of is how his other medium cavalry, after utterly outmaneuvering my slow hoplites on the opposite wing, got shot and driven off the table, I mean battlefield, by the same archers an GG had driven back with his elephant and missiles. Their earlier defeats had put them in a good position to defend my phalanxes' backs. This was important -- those cavalry could have been devastating if they hit the rear ranks of engaged phalanxes.

Everybody on the right continues to bravely do nothing.

 GG's legions continue to fight the Spartans into the fourth round. The Spartans are taking casualties (see the rings on the dude's spear?) And another veteran legion is about to join the fray.

 GG's left wing finally gets moving, enveloping and murdering this phalanx, the one that had broken their archer comrades. Hit from the flank and rear, these brave Greeks had no chance.

Fairly evenly matched melee combat in Round 4

GG did all right in Round 4, but he had not inflicted the kind of damage he needed to make up for Round 3, in which he lost a division because more than half of the relevant units broke. He threw in the towel, probably the right decision. Greece is victorious. The Romans flee the field, and the alliance of the democratic poleis will resist the Western empire, at least for now.

Why did we win?

My army had a lot of stubborn hoplites. They were damn near invulnerable to missiles. The book doesn't describe hoplites as all stubborn (Spartans are) but I added that trait to make up my army's deficit in points, paying the points the rules call for. Stubborn heavy infantry seems to be a really efficient combo. I wouldn't say it's unbalancing but it is mighty helpful. Now I'm painting another 32 hoplites so I can have a larger army with fewer special abilities.

GG had this idea of a collapsing center in which his wings would envelop the guys who charged his center. It didn't work. I think the reason is division routing. GG's center was made of an elephant, two equitae, and two medium infantry. GG hurled the elephant out front, ensuring that it would die, exposed the cavalry to considerable danger trying to flank my wings, and then presented the medium infantry as front-line targets. The danger was disproportionately heaped on the units of the central division, which weren't the steadiest units to begin with. GG's best move was getting a cavalry unit all the way behind my force.  With his cavalry, he definitely brought the hammer into play, but he never really got his infantry into a solid front, and thus lacked an anvil. Of course, there may have been some dumb luck on my part, such as my archers being forced to yield ground that put them in position to shoot at the flanking horses. Next time, I may not want to concentrate all my cavalry in one place. 

I'm happy with how my skirmishers performed. Although they got out-shot by GG's, that was to be expected -- his were more expensive. The main advantage my skirmishers have is, since they're skirmishers and not infantry, they can die, and I don't have to care because these lowly thetes don't count towards divisions breaking. Hell, my peltasts never even got off a volley of javelins and I'm still glad I brought em because that left wing cavalry charge ended with GG killing a unit of peltasts instead of somebody who was worth a bent drachma. 

All in all, an enjoyable, challenging game. I know I'll battle GG again. He's talking to me about a post-gunpowder scenario and that isn't my area of prime interest, but I'm a good sport, so I guess I'll check it out.